Clarification
OK. I am sure many of you are wondering why I like Romy with his ad-hominems and invective and posting of wildly gross misconceptions about our products and motivations.
I thought I needed to clarify with everyone, just in case they are the wondering type, that we do NOT agree with Romy’s opinion on some things, namely that everything out there sounds bad. In particular, we think that a few things actually sound pretty darn good and we really enjoy listening to music on them. These are the things we talk about on the blog and demo to people visiting our home and at show exhibits.
Romy is one of the best writers we have in audio, and one of the most perceptive – but unfortunately it does take some amount of effort to read through the emotion-laden confrontational approach.
I see a lot of myself in Romy. He sets up a Platonic Ideal of how audio *should* sound, how *all* manufacturers and dealers and audiophiles should behave – and that is that we should all be focused on just one goal – achieving that Platonic Ideal of *perfect* audio reproduction.
How is this like me (and Neli, too, in fact)? This is how we approach our other profession: computer software. No, we don’t make asses of ourselves, and we probably only think slightly less of Microsoft and Adobe and Apple’s fleet of lawyers and Rational and the average IT manager, etc. than, say, the average Linux geek.
But I would argue that Software is much more ephemeral than audio – and that the Platonic Ideal of perfect software is indeed asymptotically approachable through a little discipline and a little sympathy for all the users out there (and it would make fiscal sense). But even here – it is important to stay grounded – computers are only so fast, people only can only come up with new models of how to organize information just so quickly, the state-of-the-art has only come so far. It still will be awhile before we have Star Trek-like computers we can ask general questions of.
Romy’s problem is that he creates all these cities in his head, and then compares real live available speakers and components to this ideal. It is not even clear that this ideal would be an ideal any of the rest of us would even like – and he has not communicated very much about this ideal, which is a shame because this is where he might be able to contribute something of real significance to Audiophiledom.
At Audio Federation we seek for ourselves, and help other people find, the best available REAL WORLD solutions using the best audio reproduction equipment available today.
So, and this is my point, Romy antagonistic approach has put him more and more out of touch with real audio in the real world – and people have to be careful when they read his stuff about specific pieces of equipment [but his more abstract stuff is great]. Not recognizing differences between Marten and Kharma, about which every visitor can tell you about who has been here – not understanding the advantages and disadvantages of different approaches to vibration control – making general statements about Emm Labs [have to wonder that perhaps personal enmity is getting in the way of being able to hear what they do?] and the Supremes and on and on… leads me to think that, Platonic Ideal is fine and all that – but there needs to be some grounding in reality, in the Real World, and it just doesn’t make good sense to compare things to the Best CD Player Imaginable, or the Most Faithful Speakers Imaginable.
We are perfectly aware that the products we carry, like all products out there, have various faults. It is our well-reasoned judgment that our products have fewer faults, often much fewer, than other products out there – and further that any faults are manageable through working with the setup and the rest of the system. And it is this information about how to manage the issues like this, working with optimizing system performance, that keeps us busy with all this equipment we always seem to have have hanging around.
It is this balance, between everything sucks [except what I own, sell, imagine] and nothing sucks [that we review, see, hear about] that makes us kind of the odd man [and woman] out.
But it is this grounding in reality which gives us our real advantage. We get to live with the state-of-the-art, day in day out. We go to shows and I, anyway, get to hear every room. We talk to people and, Neli anyway, spend hours with each caller, several callers per day, hearing lots of people opinions about what kind of system they want and working with them to get them what they can afford. We focus on learning about and hearing the differences that make things sound good, stuff that is available, stuff that people can touch and have for themselves and enjoy the heck out of.
Yeah, we have our own Platonic Ideal about how things should really sound. Who doesn’t? But most of us just don’t get so angry that we start attacking people just because they are not as upset as we are that Audio reproduction is not perfect yet – nor manufacturers just because they are not getting there fast enough (or at those that do not care about getting there at all. OK. These guys do irk us) – nor at the capitalistic ambitions of honest dealers and manufacturers (very little ambitions in this smallish hobby of ours) because it sometimes hinders progress [though I would say lack of progress has more to do with human nature and people tending to be cautious and lack confidence and imagination)].
So, enough is enough. The nuggets are becoming too hard to find, mired in the anger, and the GoodSoundClub goes back on our ‘just another forum of angry people who get their rocks off attacking other people’ list, just like most of the other major forums out there.
Hi Mike,
It’s been a while since I last posted here. Glad to see that you and Neli are doing well and I’m also very glad that I don’t need to use a password anymore … that sucked.
Anyways … regarding Romy: “there is some truth in your fiction and some fiction in your truth”.
I would like to point out that while Romy takes a very radical approach to his critique of various pieces out there he ALWAYS brings some very important points to the table.
For example: If audio gear looses microdynamic detail at audio shows … why do people even bother to showcase it? … and invite reviewers to post their opinions on such rooms (often with superlatives) when like you yourself said … mechanical damping has not been addressed well enough anyways?
Which leads to another conclusion: If we don’t really hear components performing at their best/properly at these shows … what’s the point of these shows?
So that is just one quick point that comes out from a closer read of his posts … INDIRECT RESULT.
Also, we (as all too humans) tend to readily see the irony present in other people but are almost blind when it comes to ourselves.
Remember Mike, that when you had the Triolons at AF you complimented them many times over that NOTHING on the planet could approach their real world performance. Then, in come the Coltranes and … the Triolons weren’t quite as involving in the midrange …. for $145 000?????
I could point out that you also raved about the shunyata powercords and conditioners for a long time before dropping the entire line.
Proper mechanical damping? What about Halcyonics???? How do YOU know that you are hearing your components performing properly?
And what about the Sound Application RLS????? Or Bybee products????
Balance?
Well there is the irony in all of us.
Hi Remy!
Well, some people like the shock jock approach – and anybody who expresses things in a confrontational manner with confidence can seem like they know what they are talking about. Important points take some serious thought and effort on the part of the reader to find – in any subject – if we are talking about reality. They can be found on Romy’s site – but like here, they do take effort to find, thinking to understand, and wisdom to see if they make really make sense.
???? Romy ignores vibration effects and other people ignore the sound of cables and … Science and knowledge advance and sometimes they lead and sometime experience leads – we learn things and things get better and we can grow individually and what is best changes over time. It think it is OK to drive a car even though it does not get 1 million miles per gallon… yet. And ti like cars and to talk about which is best at this or that.
Why don’t components performs their best at shows? I don’t understand the point.
It is too bad you think so badly of us. But, for one, the Supremes were not even built when we were telling everybody about the Triolons. Second, we do not take back a single great thing we said about the Triolons – they are great speakers. We just had irreconcilable differences with the current distributor – and talking about this line here might end up hurting more people than it would help. [And not as involving in the midrange??? Uh, this has more to do with the amp…].
And Shunyata [OK, more gossipy goop] dropped us. We still do not know exactly why [and we got stuck with $50K of cords – mostly their top of the line Anacondas] – but at that time they also dropped their original dealer who was with them since the beginning [and who knows who else]. We thought it was because they wanted to move to home-theater-only … and there is still evidence to support this idea. They have already gone through 1 other dealer in this area and are at a second now(!). We still think quite fondly of their old gray Anaconda cords – but truthfully they kept changing their line so often – and the cords sound so different from each other – that it really confused our customers, so in the end, losing this line has not turned out to be such a bad thing.
We like the Sound Applications products [and people!] – and it has to be better than the Office Depot power strips we use here most of the time, right? [:-)]. We heard it here – and do plan on getting on board when it becomes the next thing to do. Bybee? You mean the Bybee stuff in the Marten Coltrane and Jorma Design Cables? Or you mean the ultra expensive new tweak he has out?
We are not stupid politicians answering stupid press questions about something we said when the facts as we all knew them were different. We are not all-knowing, and the world does not stay still, and we try to be as good an audiophile as we can every step of the way – we means, I hope, that we grow and change and get better [and better!] music from our systems.
People are always turning us on to new music and new products – some we like and some we don’t. We are just kind of focused on reality and it seems like it is plenty fun. Of course it is not perfect. Certainly, the pointing out of the obvious in a confrontational and accusatory or mocking manner, especially on TV, radio and the internet – is very popular to many people these days. And it just seems to me the GoodSoundClub is becoming like this as well.
Anyway, thanks for posting… sure hope to get up to the Montreal Show next year.
Take care,
Mike.
*** Romy ignores vibration effects …
And you say so because… the vibration controls methods I use you are not signed to sell? Wait another year of two when HRS drops you or you drops them and you will find yours searching my site learning about other vibration control platforms. BTW, I am pretty sure that I spent more time, more efforts and sorry to say it more money for experimenting with vibration control methods then you ever did. So, your comment what Romy ignores is rather a fact of your peddler-convent imagination then fact. I do have different vision about the need of “vibration control” but I afraid that with your attitude you might not understand the concept altogether.
The Cat
Well, Romy, I sure enjoy your writing even when you insult me.
But I think addressing each issue as if you have a secret answer that everyone else is too stupid to understand is tantalizing and entertaining to read – but not of much use to people who want to improve their systems.
It is not very complicated – and it is the sad state of affairs that the scientific method seems so out of favor these days. We try a product. We listen. If it sounds better than another one [under several different situations] we like it better tna the other one. Repeat.
Will the current HRS approach be the best approach forever? Of course not. Is it perfect? Of course not. Everybody knows that. So we keep our ears open and HRS continually does research to make their product better. It is really not all that complicated.
If you are into exposing REAL unethical immoral multi-dimensional conspiracies, you could always just point your keyboard toward any number of topics that I am sure come readily to all of our minds …
Thanks for posting,
Take care,
Mike
Hi Mike,
No need to take things personally Mike, I certainly don’t think badly of either you or Neli. I have enjoyed meeting both of you at FSI when you came as visitors and quite frankly I loved the Acapella system when you had it.
I know that both you and Neli (and the people at Tenor) are big fans of the Kharma speakers. But on this point I lean over to Romy’s side. I have spent considerable time trying to understand this type of sound … and it does not sound natural to me! The midrange detail is great but unless your ear is next to the singer’s mouth or right on top of the violin’s string (as the bow goes over) you will not hear that type of detail Mike. But if that’s the position that you want to be in when you hear a performance … then the Kharma speakers are an ideal choice. Also, another thing about Kharma speakers that I find quite unattractive is the acidity present in the highs until they settle down … but to my ears this never dissapears completely.
So please, don’t take this inclinations of mine personally … they have nothing to do with you or Romy. They are my preferences.
What I was trying to say in my earlier post is that we all have our fallacies … each and every one of us … that’s what makes us only “human all to human”. (Nietzsche)
So really, I’m no better than you or Romy or anyone else. I just know what type of sound I enjoy. And you do too. And Romy does too.
Good for all of us.
Hi Mike,
No need to take things personally Mike, I certainly don’t think badly of either you or Neli. I have enjoyed meeting both of you at FSI when you came as visitors and quite frankly I loved the Acapella system when you had it.
I know that both you and Neli (and the people at Tenor) are big fans of the Kharma speakers. But on this point I lean over to Romy’s side. I have spent considerable time trying to understand this type of sound … and it does not sound natural to me! The midrange detail is great but unless your ear is next to the singer’s mouth or right on top of the violin’s string (as the bow goes over) you will not hear that type of detail Mike. But if that’s the position that you want to be in when you hear a performance … then the Kharma speakers are an ideal choice. Also, another thing about Kharma speakers that I find quite unattractive is the acidity present in the highs until they settle down … but to my ears this never dissapears completely.
So please, don’t take this inclinations of mine personally … they have nothing to do with you or Romy. They are my preferences.
What I was trying to say in my earlier post is that we all have our fallacies … each and every one of us … that’s what makes us only “human all to human”. (Nietzsche)
So really, I’m no better than you or Romy or anyone else. I just know what type of sound I enjoy. And you do too. And Romy does too.
Good for all of us.
Sorry about the run of diarrhea above … not sure what happened there.
Also, I was not aware of the shunyata story … so my bad. I better get all the facts straight next time … that is before posting. The grey anaconda cords were very nice but like everything else in audio, they exhibited a particular TYPE of sound … I felt it was CLARITY … or clinicality depending on the system.
“Why don’t components performs their best at shows? I don’t understand the point”. OK, fair enough. My point being that if at shows you share dirty power with all other audio rooms, and if most rooms don’t address mechanical isolation properly or some not at all … and you don’t use bybee products to clean up the sound (like in your cables for example, but not limited to) and the speakers are too large for the room (or the room is too small for the speakers) … and if you use tube gear that takes considerable amount of time to warm up and trully blossom … THEN WHAT KIND OF SOUND ARE YOU GETTING OUT OF THE COMPONENTS? THEIR REAL CHARACTER? It is has often been my experience that any component that I have come across at shows tends to sound different in my system … not to say that I am hearing its true sonic character here but the results are NOT consistent. This has not only happened in my system. If that is the case then what exactly is the point of show reviews? (from a sonic perspective)
I enjoy the atmosphere at shows, I enjoy the variety of gear but the sound is usually quite average even in the pricy rooms. One example comes to mind: last year at FSI someone (Critical Mass Systems I believe) put together a system around the Lamm ML3 amps with the Lamm reference phonostage and preamp and the Verity Audio Lohengrin’s. I don’t remember the exact digital and analog sources used but all cables were the KS Emotion and all isolation was from Critical Mass (their top of the line). Personally, after hearing this system on three different days I could not possibly justify spending that kind of money. So once again, what is the point of putting together such a system and getting an average result? That was my point.
Hi Remy,
I do not know about you or Romy, but I try not to talk very much about my personal preferences. I try to only talk about “quality of implementation of a component designed for a particular purpose”. check out our Audiophile’s Guide to the Galaxy “Best Speakers” and other such sections for examples.
In the panoplie of what is available, what we carry are the best at what they do. There are a few other products as good – but rarely better. We try and look at and hear everything.
You and Romy don;t like the Kharma sound. Fine. But in the spectrum of speaker sound as we go from box speakers that are very musical and high resolution, passing through Avalon [less musical, less resolution, more dynamic], branching off to Hansen [slightly less musical and even more dynamic] or over to Marten [more resolution, less musical, more accurate] and to Wilson [more resolution, even less musical, dynamics between Hansen and Avalon would be my estimate] we see a whole family of top notch implementations of the modern box speaker with slightly different purposes in life – and certain handicaps vis-a-vis drivability, room size, et. al. but all centered around that modern sound.
If someone likes Acapella and not Kharma, it is most likely because they prefer a high-efficiency very dynamic open sound over the modern box speaker sound of high-resolution and control. There are ways to setup your system to bring these two much closer together, or to take them to the opposite extremes. But that is a topic for another day. My original point was that Romy sometimes labels some products as crummy when they are not – he just disagrees with their purpose in life. I happen to agree with Romy that products designed soley to make money are unfortunate and should be shunned by true audiophiles, lest budding audiophiles get duped into buying them when they really want a higher quality product.
Hi Remy part II 🙂
The Grey Anaconda Alpha had a punchy, nice balance of openness and control and resolution, and a slightly veiled sound which was acceptable and even welcome on certain kinds of components. Someone might find the resolution ‘clinical’ if they really shun the modern ‘high resolution sound’. Neli definitely prefers the more open, more separation, and somewhat more natural sound of the ELRODs. I… I change my mind about once an hour and like and dislike all power cords. [But we have the ODIN here… maybe I’ll settle down and stop being a power cord swinger].
Not sure why the focus on Bybee and vibration isolation, but at shows you learn to listen around things. I will think about what you said, but my first instinct is to think that the difference in sound of a component between show and home is one of time. At a show you get maybe an hour or two, in an unfamiliar system. At home you get days and weeks. Both situations change the listener as they learn more and more about their personal preferences through their response to the sound.
But your situation is more complex than that. Lets say someone hears a sound in a room at a show they like. Why do they like it? What about it they like? Which component is responsible? Or is it multiple components? Is it the system? If it is a single component, what supporting components are helping it get that sound?
They take the component home. Their system does not have the expected magic. Is it because the comp0onent does not have a supporting framework which it needs to bring out the desired sound? Is it because there is another component that conflicts with it? Is it because there is a bad component in the system that is now revealed for what it is because the new component is of higher quality and for the first time lets the listener hear more the other components in the system?
People call up all the time with this problem, usually about stuff they bought elsewhere and are getting no help at all for, and Neli often helps track their problem down to this last issue. Sometimes they love the offending component so much that they just give up improving the system. But usually there is a way to test the system without the component – so they can hear the system with it and without it – and make a more reasoned decision. I always remember how we felt the Levinson 20.6 monoblocks were the best an amp could ever be – and how sad it was when over the years we grew to understand that they had flaws – flaws that we learned we, personally, no longer wanted to live with.
So for me, shows are great. But you have to understand and work around their limitations. They are really no different than going to a dealership or a typical audiophile’s house. Except that they must suffer the slings and arrows of public scrutiny and Audio Federation show reports. 🙂
Can’t really comment on the Lamm ML3 system in Montreal. Some of what the ML3 does is subtle – being the end-all-and-be-all of the modern amplifier, it does a lot of things that will take a long time to understand. But just walking up to a system with the ML3, a lot has to do with how you like the general sound of the system – it will not magically make each system have a super-charged ML3’ish super-sound – or you have to mentally strip the system of everything but the ML3s. Men should be good at this 😉 But not married men :-).
Whether any component, like the Lamm ML3, is worth it to someone is a personal matter. EVERYONE wishes EVERYTHING was cheaper. They sell some organic cage-free eggs here for over $4 a dozen. I think that is outrageous. The new version of my car is $120K. This is outrageous. But if I had the money floating around for it… well, it might not be THAT outrageous.
Thanks for posting.
Take care,
Mike.