Small Tube Amps and Drug-like Sound II
This task, to determine which small tube amps will have the greatest chance to be able to produce a drug-like sound, is very dependent on the speakers being used. But each amp does have general characteristics that we can try and talk about on a ‘generic’ speaker.
As a generic speaker, let’s just imagine we did a melting together of the following [we are leaving out extremely hard to drive speakers and those that have issues] $12K to $25K speakers: Kharma 3.2, Avantgarde Duo, Marten Getz, Marten Miles, Wilson Sophia, Quad, the small Gershwin, Audio Machina, and all of the many Audio Note speakers in this price range… [I am trying to think of all the speakers that had micro-dynamics – and therefore a chance to be drug-like – when I have heard them driven by small tube amps in this price range. I know I am forgetting a few. There are also quite a few above $25K].
Others in this price range I have heard have good micro-dynamics driven by good solid-state: Avalon Opus/Indra, SoundLab, …
This is a really funny exercise for me… for example, a lot of these speakers often have so-so [or worse] Boy Toy amps on them at most shows and sound, you guessed it, so-so [or just bad]. Many more speakers might do fine with small tube amps – but there is so much pressure to create that Boy Toy sound at shows [we feel this pressure ourselves when we exhibit at shows], that exhibitors [and no doubt your average dealers] take the path of least resistance and put a big Boy Toy amp on the speakers.
Why is there this pressure to show Boy Toy sound?
Anyway… [including Joule Electra and Atma-Sphere here with the small amps, being OTL and all. Lars is by Engström & Engström. VAC is here because… it has more of a small amp sound]
Micro-Dynamics =>
Jolida – Rogue – Cary – Art Audio – Pathos – Atma-Sphere – Manley – ASL – Air Tight – Tri – Joule Electra – Conrad Johnson – Audio Valve —> Mastersound – Nagra – WAVAC – VAC – Zanden – Berning OTL —> Lars – Audio Note – Lamm
Micro-Harmonics / Harmonic Purity =>
Pathos – Rogue – Atma-Sphere – Jolida – WAVAC – Cary – Air Tight – Manley – ASL – Art Audio – Tri – Conrad Johnson – Nagra —> VAC – Berning OTL – Mastersound – Joule Electra —> Lars – Zanden – Lamm – Audio Note
[This is just a VERY general categorization, it REALLY depends a LOT on the speakers you are using – though less so with the amps with very-high-quality output stages like Audio Note and Berning or beefier outputs like VAC, Joule-Electra.
TBD: Shindo have not been heard with equipment of known decent quality – i..e their sound has not impressed but the associated equipment could have been the potential culprit. Have not heard Jadis in a long time (but they will be at CES 2011)
—> indicates a wider gap. Elsewhere one could, arguably, perhaps, swap an amp with its neighbor amp or two.
Mixing Micro-harmonics and Harmonic purity like this in the same list was convenient but might be a mistake although I believe both contribute to a drug like complexity to the sound].
OK. Comments?
Mike, I have found your discussion of drug like systems to be very intriguing. I know that this is not an exact science but are you basing your ratings in this post on entire product lines, i.e., “house sounds” or on the top of the line amplifiers from each manufacturer (or something else)? For example, would you include the moderately priced Audio Note amplifiers in the rating as set forth above?
Keep up the great work,
G
Have you ever heard these tube friendly speakers?
http://www.decware.com/newsite/speakers.html
Mike,
I think what is missing and neded to complete the model is a listing of any higher powered amps (tube or solid state) that can do micro detail and micro dynamics and how these slot into the continuums that you have established in both areas. While I accept that micro detail and micro dynamics are not a priority for most manufacturers of higher powered amps, it should not be impossible, at least in theory, for them to do so. Many years ago I owned one of the original Spectral DMA 100’s and thought that it did a reasonably good job in these areas. I have not kept up with their current production so have no particular feeling about their current products. I do know that the FM Acoustics with some modifications, such as the addition of normal binding pposts and insertion internally of Jorma jumpers can be made to sound good and I suspect that the Vitus line might be interesting.
Fred
Hi Big G,
Good question…
The metrics used is loosely based on house sound, as exemplified by the line’s statement products. We are making the [not always correct] assumption that a line’s statement products reflect the kind of sound the manufacturer is ‘going for’. I am also more familiar with the statement products from most of these lines than their average product.
This can be somewhat problematic with lines like, say, Lamm, whose statement ML3 costs almost 5 times their next most expensive amp, the ML2.1. And the Lars may be the ONLY product by E&E.
Yes, the moderately priced Audio Note are included – especially if we compare to other amps at similar price points. And even if we do not, taking the $3K or so Oto integrated as an example, on extremely easy to drive speakers (the Oto is 10 watts with a medium strength output transformer – as opposed to the Ongaku at 24 watts with a transformer that can the Terminator would have proposed to – assuming he was of that orientation [my early morning humor :-)]) would still score to the right of Nagra [which is seemingly going for neutrality and killer looks and build quality.]
But you are right, some of these lines, CJ for example, have tons of products and some may bust out of their assigned place, wither to the upside or downside. And then there is ARC, who likewise has a ton of product, but whose smaller offerings I have not [knowingly] heard in a while.
Like they say on the Pirates of the Caribbean, these are only kind of ‘guidelines’ – you are still going to have to use your better judgment, specially as we start talking about specific speakers.
Take care,
-Mike
Hi Fred,
Joule Electra and VAC are in the 150 watts arena, which is fairly large. We did look at solid-state last February and, you are right, we need to do a little merging at the end of all this discussion of the small tube amps.
I put off talking about small tube amps last Feb because of the – at the time – unclear approach we needed to take because of the severe dependence of small amps sound on the speakers being used [compared to the similar, but much less, I think, dependence solid-state sound has on the speaker chosen]
http://audiofederation.com/blog/archives/656
// MICRO
VTL – Soulution – McIntosh – BAT – CAT – ARC – Pass – Boulder – Krell – FM Acoustics – Spectral – Halcro – MBL – Ayre – Sanders – Goldmund – Edge – Vitus
// MIDI
VTL – BAT – CAT – ARC – McIntosh -Vitus – Edge – Sanders – Goldmund – FM Acoustics – Pass – Ayre – MBL – Spectral – Halcro -Krell – Soulution – Boulder
// MACRO
Spectral – Vitus – Edge – Ayre – Pass – CAT – Halcro – Sanders – Goldmund? – FM Acoustics – MBL – McIntosh – Krell – Soulution – ARC – Boulder – BAT – VTL
Take care,
-Mike
Hi Charls,
I believe I have seen these but do not remember what they sound like. There are also a number of efficient open baffle speakers in the sub-$5K range that sound decent. We’ll have to make list of them here sometime. The problem with many of the lesser expensive high-efficiency speakers is that they muck up the midrange somehow. Lowther drivers are very temperamental that way. Hiel drivers do much better, IMHO, although the ADAM speakers with modified Heil are hit and miss and I prefer the Oskar Heil [not sure they are still in business]. High efficiency ribbons like Decware is using seems like it might work.
Take care,
-Mike
Thanks Mike. You had mentioned that you were going to do some evaluating of, and comparisons with, the Jinro. Have you had the opportunity to spend enough time with the Jinro to know whether you would put it in the same category as the top of the line AN amps with respect to microdynamics, microharmonics and harmonic purity? Thanks,
G
Hi Mike and Neli,
I agree that music has to induce a drug-like state and friends (who are drug takers) tell me that music is my fix (i’m a prude and have never taken any drugs, bar alcohol) .
My amp puts out maybe 2watts max, Welborne Starchief (EML 45 tubes) and on my Avantgarde Duo Omega give me that magic harmonic realism and dynamic aliveness, possibly due to the 18ohm sensitivity, that puts the music in the room like no other.
I have never heard other systems do this trick. yes they do dynamics, they do bombast, they do soundstage etc. etc. but nothing else does this magic. Maybe your Triolons did?
The AA prestige helps and wish i could afford La Source.
Yes, you have nailed it on the head re. small amps and drug-like sound and i’m a believer.
On another note, if you’ve not tried them, Alan Maher’s products are amazing and bring out this micro dynamic and harmonic shading unlike anything else. You must try them.
and on another note, The new Ray Lamontagne album is stunning and gives that live presence you we are talking about.
all the best from the UK………..45 tubes rule!!!
Barry
Hi G,
We are hoping to have a official shootout of the $20K Jinro integrated versus the $95K Ongaku integrated very soon.
‘same category as the top of the line AN amps’ ? ‘same category’ is hard to define, but as we all know the better [i.e. more expensive] the AN product is, be it speakers or amps or whatever, the more ‘microdynamics, microharmonics and harmonic purity’ you gonna get.
As with everything, there is a price/performance curve, and the Jinro, along with the Audio Note PALLAS interconnect cable, perform WAY above their price point. Each is competitive with all contenders at 2 to 3 times their asking price. AN doesn’t make ‘mistakes’ like this very often – so just a heads-up everybody…
We didn’t feel the Jinro was quite broken in, knowing its short history, so we’ve been slow to pass judgment. We also changed the phase adjustment on the Coltrane Supreme speakers – which increased the presense of the presentation significantly from the nearfield couch listening area [I almost always listen from behind the couch, at a much more appropriate distance and ear height :-), and even from here an improvement is noticeable]. Anyway, this messed up our comparisons with our memory of the Ongaku a little bit – or rather we find it distracting … and also worrisome that somehow we bumped the phase sometime in the past [I blame it on over zealous dusting :-)]. Anyway, not to turn this into Peyton Place or Sherlock Holmes… or divorce court 🙂
But what I can safely say so far is that the Jinro’s control of the speaker is VERY close to that of the Ongaku, which is world-class. That means that note attacks are very accurate and exciting and come out of nowhere [which has its own drug-like side-effects]. The harmonic purity is also head-turningly good [literally], though, since its microharmonics is not in the same class as the Ongaku, it is a different, simpler purity than that of the Ongaku.
I am already saying too much… we’ll know a lot more in a few days when we sit down and actually spend the time to concentrate on all the micro’s. 🙂
Take care,
-Mike
Hi Barry,
Your system sounds like it is nicely optimized, and, although I might personally choose a Kageki 8 watt 2A3 amp 🙂 this is exactly the kind of setup we are talking about in these posts.
We have had more drug-like sounds on the Marten Coltrane Supremes, and even the much smaller Coltranes than the Triolons, but it is an unfair comparison. The reason I think that is that the drug-like effects are DIFFERENT. The Triolons were like being able to fly to all sorts of places and times and hear the greats perform. The Martens are like the greats come over to our house and share dinner with us and then perform a few numbers. One is very spectacular, one is very intimate [I am exaggerating but I am trying to make a point here :-)]
Yeah, the LaSource is like a super-Prestige [which is itself a great player]. Your system seems to have a very nice balance.
I have a point to make about your comment that … ‘nothing else does this magic.’ except perhaps the Triolons. Not a criticism, necessarily, but an observation about system designs. This point is a general one here to everyone reading these drug-like sound posts.
The point is that some people, the same people who usually end up with horns (and sometimes high efficiency Audio Note speakers), really need a very dynamic sound for their brain to focus on, allowing them to [potentially] ignore problems in the rest of the sound and let the drug-like aspects of the sound have its effect. They just cannot figure out what is the point of even listening to a system that does not have great dynamics. Our good friend J. Miller is one of these 🙂 Sometimes I think Fred is turning into one of these ;-).
Some people, on the other hand, are more concerned with soundstage depth, for example. The images have to be spread out and layered deeply. They just cannot figure out what is the point of even listening to a system that does not have great soundstaging.
My point is that people are different, and that, here on the blog especially, we go for the 80 – 20 rule [or 90 – 10. or 99 – 1] which means that we try and focus on getting 80% of everything right, accepting that that last 20% is just too expensive to get right, or getting it right will force something else to be too terribly wrong.
So we will include systems like Barry’s, that does midi-dynamics, say, 95% right [but which may get decay 85% right], next to a box speaker system that does, say, dynamics 85% right [and gets decays 95% right]. We are going to assume that both are equally capable of a drug-like sound, but that one might be preferred over another by a particular person.
This is like shopping at Toy-R-Us [they still around?]. Or the football draft. You want horn-like midi-dynamics first? Fine. You want great resolution first AND great dynamics? Its gonna cost ya [the Audio Note Gaku-On with Odin power cords on the Coltrane Supreme speakers has all the dynamics of the big Triolon horn speakers. Of course, the Gaku-On is over $200K. And we never got a chance to hear the Gaku-On themselves on the Triolons :-)].
So, don’t anybody be persuaded that because Barry is certain that horn speakers are required for drug-like sound, that you also need horn speakers to achieve a drug-like sound. Or maybe you do. But this particular need for dynamics is not, IMHO, REQUIRED for a drug-like sound – it is more about satisfying your personal needs if your need requires lots of midi-dynamics for music to sound like music.
Thanks for posting, Barry.
Take care,
-Mike
it is not clear to me what you mean by ” drug like systems ” . apparently drug like systems should evoke intense musical experiences – whatever that means . but i am encouraged that you recognize the fine quality of atma-sphere and vac tube amplifiers . i am an insecure audiophile and need to have my equipment choices confirmed by leading industry professionals . in my previous post ( drug-like sound part one ) i stated that the price of a stereo system in today’s market that is capable of evoking intense musical experiences is about 65 thousand dollars depending on the quality of the front end components ( both analogue and digital ) . then you jumped all over me with the notion that i was foolishly defending my own system without full consideration for the many megabuck stereo setups that audiophiles inexplicably continue to haul into their listening rooms . i could not care less what other people blow their money on . and i certainly do not feel slighted if someone disapproves of my component choices ( which are martin logan clx black art frame electrostatics , two rel g1 subs , atma-sphere ma-2 mark 3.1 monoblocks , vac signature preamp mark 2a with phono , tw acustic ac 1 tt , kuzma airline tonearm , dynavector xv-1t cart , audio gd cd-7 , audio gd reference 9 dac , custom built intel windows based digital music server with asus xonar sound card , atma-sphere interconnects and nordost heimdall speaker cables ) . the total cost of my system is about 65 thousand . audio federation sells several excellent alternative pieces of audio equipment for around the same prices as mine . and i do not doubt that these other products ( especially sound lab stats ) will achieve the elusive ” intense musical experience ” that we all desire . my original point was simply that spending beyond this admittedly high price level for a fully outfitted stereo system in today’s market is not only overkill but more importantly does not reproduce music any better .
Hi doggrell3000,
I do not ‘recognize the fine quality of atma-sphere and vac tube amplifiers’. We rated them with respect to many other amplifiers and people can decide if they think they like the tradeoffs or not. We have not rated their preamps at all, which for most brands of amplifier-making companies, for some reason [it doesn’t make sense to me, but there you have it], often are of a significantly lesser quality than their amps.
I am sure many people are hoping that ‘price of a stereo system in today’s market that is capable of evoking intense musical experiences’ is a lot less than $65K.
Similarly, I think many people’s ears tell them that systems costing more than $65K can indeed ‘reproduce music … better’ than the ones that cost only $65K. Sorry to hear that you have not had the pleasure of this experience.
I mean, I like 2^16 as much as anybody, but…
Just so I do not have to repeat myself any more than I have to, people can re-read the comment before yours and just replace ‘horn speaker’ with ‘electrostatic speaker’. Next, let’s see, we’ll here from the …. “It has to be an active-woofer speaker” folks [makes some sense, really], or the “it has to be a first order crossover” folks, or the, oh, “it has to be a single-driver speaker” folks.
*sigh*
Perhaps you should just hang out awhile, doggrell3000. We cover a wide range of gear and I think you might enjoy reading about all the different types of drug-like systems that can be built.
Take care,
-Mike
Mike,
I had the same question as Fred. Would you integrate the top 5 of the solid state amps from the Micro list into the tube amp list for Micro-Dynamics and Micro-Harmonics. I would be very interested to see the matchup. Thanks
Hi
Thanks Mike, I like this discussion.
I think micro Harmonic factor like color and harmonic purity is very dependent to AC power and ground of system.
many AC filters kill micro dynamic but improve tone purity and color but if there was a good AC regenerator then we had improvement in micro harmonic purity.
second, acoustics and speaker placement has a deep effect on tone color and tone purity.
Vitus in your harmonic list (less to more at http://audiofederation.com/blog/archives/656) will goes to a far better place if you pair it with a good AC regenerator with a near zero ohm ground line and in a good acoustical system.
Thanks again
Regards
Amir
Hi Les,
Ohhh…. now I get it. OK. I need to add a few tube amps to the list too. Thanks.
Take care,
-Mike
Hi Amir,
I think the micro-harmonics of an amplifier is dependent on the sound of the amplifier.
🙂
It is an error in logic for engineers to think that there is one part of any design that is the ‘only important part’ of that design, or even the most important part. This systemic cautionary rule is called ‘No Silver Bullet’ in the software world. It means that there is no magical all-important key to any design of any system that makes it a great system. In software, somebody will insist that it is the computer language used, or the methodology used to write it, or the test methods, or the age of the programmers, or the UI, or whatever that made, Twitter say, a massive success. But the truth is a lot more complicated and their success, any successful design, involves many, many elements.
Similarly with audio equipment – it is the Black Gate capacitors; no wait, it is the power supply; nope it has to be the discrete components; the point-to-point wiring… the size of the traces… the composition of the PC board… the thickness and type of metal used for the chassis, the tube used, the newness of the design, how the design was arrived at [I’m thinking of YG Acoustics and Magico here for this last :-)], etc.
Just like EVERYTHING matters in the design of a stereo system, EVERYTHING also matters inside each component.
Sure, the power supply is important. So is everything else.
As far as ‘AC regenerators’ go, on paper it makes a lot of sense, but in our experience they remove dynamics, micro, midi and macro [it may be hard to hear at first, because they usually make the background blacker / quieter – but it has the result of sucking the life out of the music].
Maybe if there was one designed for, say, a large hotel or hospital it might work, but the problem audiophile regenerators – and most conditioners – have is they are unable to supply the entire amount of the current the components demand, when the components demand it. The transformers and wires of the regenerator just cannot compete with the massive powerplant and the comparatively straight-line in-wall wiring.
At least, that is what our experience has been and we have had massive success by telling people who have had one of these power thingies [they have all sorts of faux names] for awhile in their system to just do an experiment and take them out of their system for a day, using a good, say $30, power strip instead. Their power thingies almost invariably end up going up for sale the next day [the exception being for very bright sounding systems where almost any change, including power-conditioning/regeneration, is for the better].
Take care,
-Mike
Dear Mike
“I think the micro-harmonics of an amplifier is dependent on the sound of the amplifier.”
It’s right and i have no problem with it but condition of test make it a little hard to score a character like “harmonic color”.
I do not say all AC regenerators are good and i listened some of them like Accuphase that it destroyed sound, i like to say some amplifiers are more sensitive to external parameters than others.
mike, i remember in a test you wrote that “Audio Note with better Power cord sound more like Lamm” and it means if we make a better AC power for Audio note then it could sound better like Lamm. (i do not remember AN and Lamm models)
another thing that seems to effect on harmonic color is the output transformers.
all tube design that use output transformer and some transistor designs like Mcintosh that use output transformers with limited bandwiths have more color.
best regards
Amir
Hi Amir,
“i like to say some amplifiers are more sensitive to external parameters than others.”
I agree completely. But this truism is unrelated to the actual quality of the sound of the amplifier.
“Audio Note with better Power cord sound more like Lamm”
I could imagine myself saying this, though I could not find the post using Google, though I disagree with your interpretation of the implications a little. We probably, at that time, put the Shunyata Anaconda Vx or even the old Anaconda ‘Gray’ power cords on the Audio Note. This would tend to make it more laid back (like the Lamm, and not so good with respect to midi-dynamics) and a little higher resolution (like the Lamm, which is generally a good thing). I guess what I am trying to say is that one can use power cords to make AN sound more like Lamm (or Lamm sound more like Audio Note) but this may or may not be ‘better’, depending on personal taste.
OK. Mcintosh can be said to have color, but it is low on harmonic purity and ‘vividness’. I do not see this as a particularity good thing. There is this Visual Color I see when I hear equipment. Valhalla is bluish silver. Jorma Prime is orangish brown. Mcintosh… is uneven, kind of like a faded-in-some-areas worn plaid shirt. The Ongaku is … OK, I will start a new post about this… 🙂
Take care, Amir,
-Mike
“I agree completely. But this truism is unrelated to the actual quality of the sound of the amplifier.”
I agree but i say external condition make it hard to easily score an amplifier.
I say if you test Vitus Amplifier in your room with good AC power cord, with good speaker placement and good anti vibration racks then your score for Vitus Harmonic differ from testing vitus in a showroom.
about AN and Lamm i do not say you wrote it’s dynamic was better, i just say that comparison was an example that showes importance of external parameters.
about Mcintosh i agree it’s color contrast is high but it’s purity is low and dark like ASR emitter.
Audio Note is like rainbow, OK
Vitus in my mind have a better place than other solidstates in your list for it’s harmonic purity and color.
have good times 🙂
regards
Amir
What would be interesting is to see if and how your views have changed 8 years later AND to pit the Tube and SS amps against each other. So SS and Tube pitted against each other. After a 200 watt can still drive 97dB sensitive speakers so one can still fairly test the tube amps without them running out of power. SS sort of proclaims that it can drive anything – well if that is true they can drive 105dB sensitive speakers too right? So … keep up the good work Mike and Nelly 🙂
Hi Richard,
[somehow we stopped getting notified about comments – I apologize for not seeing this until now!]
I think, 8 (!) years later, that I (both of us, in fact) very skeptical about solid-state amps ever being drug-like, in and of themselves. Yeah.
But they can get out of the way of the rest of the system, not color the sound too much and put a damper on midi-dynamics [and other stuff] too much, and if the rest of the system is drug-like, well then, viola, we get a drug-like system.
Strangely [well, *I* think it is strange] it seems easiest to get a drug-like system when several things in the system are very high resolution and there is at least one high-quality tube component. Perhaps the extreme high-res stuff overwhelms the logical part, the doubting part, of the brain, letting the rest of the brain free to explore strange new worlds of experience.
For example, it was recently here that we streamed very hi-res music off a harddisc [didn’t work of the SSD!] into the Audio Note M9 into the Acapella hybrid amp into the Acapella Cellini High. This resulted, for me, in the ‘music’ not being music but a kind of 3D flowing solid of weird [fun!] stuff I was swimming through as the sound flowed by me.
No mental lubricants or recreationals required 🙂 – but we had been listening to music very intently for several hours first.
That system has scattered to the winds, but we had the AN/E SPe speakers in there soon after, and I see no reason why this same effect cannot be triggered on a similar source running into an M2 and something like an Audio Note Empress [we are currently enamored of trying our first Empress 2A3 amp] and the ‘E’s. Hope so because we are slowly trying to assemble this exact system [and put it in Neli’s office / the dining room – which has corners… kind of].
Thanks for posting!
Take care,
-Mike
Hi Mike, Coming late to this interesting conversation which I appreciate was about amps…. I would like though to nominate the ls5/9’s for a reasonably priced drug like loudspeaker (in a smallish room). It has low distortion and high resolution. Kondo recomend it for their entry level amps and AN UK make the integrated amp for Rogers a la Andy Whittle. Richard Austen reviewed it on Dagogo against the AN UK K spe and found it different but on a par. I have the Graham version which has air cored inductors and Jensen cross caps. Works pretty well with my vintage Meishu phono. Best with as much silver in the chain as poss. short of OPT’s which would probably not make sense financially.
Not a very recent article but still very applicable. Only people that are receptive to flea-power and high efficiency speakers know how addictive this combination can be. But it asks for some courage to go against the flow..