Acoustic Zen Crescendo and Tri at CES 2010
Wherein we go into more detail about the sound at this year’s CES.
First, Robert Lee of Acoustic Zen knows how to set up a room at a show. He knows what kind of sound he is after, and if the amp he was supplied is not doing what he wants, he will put it on static display and use something else that gets the job done.
What this means is that 1) you can go to their room at a show and be pretty certain it is not going to suck. In fact, it will likely be quite good sounding [we’ll go into what good sounding means in this context below], and 2) that the amps he is using are amps YOU can use with these Acoustic Zen speakers and be pretty sure that it is going to also sound good.
Yes, this is indeed extremely rare. By far most rooms (99% or so), even ones we give best of shows to, either A) sound good because they got lucky and the unfamiliar amp from a manufacturer who was the first to agree to share costs of the room JUST HAPPENED to sound good with the speaker manufacturer who was the first to agree to pay some of the room costs or B), the quality of one of the components, or the speakers, is so good that even with mismatched components the room still sounds pretty good.
Acoustic Zen has paired with Red Dragon, Edge, Response Audio and Tri.
Essentially, the Crescendo speakers are full-range Adagio speakers, which were already pretty full-range but were not enough for people with larger rooms or who listen to a lot of classical music and want the lower octaves to sound realistic. The Crescendo has a greater ease of presentation and a bigger, fuller sound.
Which I think is the point of these speakers.
First, most speakers in this price range suck. They are a joke. Few attempt to do full range and those that do usually suck more.
Let’s talk about the ones that do not suck for a minute.
We have the Marten Miles III and Kharma 3.1C. More detail, more transparency, more audiophile, but no where near the authority or frequency range.
The Soundlab A1 has the frequency range, but not the authority unless you really out a mofo amp on it, but if you want a electrostatic then you are probably not reading this post anyway.
You got the Wilson Sophia [not the range or sense of ease], Avalon… not sure which one [not the authority or range], Audio Note [if you have corners available. If you do then this might be a possibility, with careful attention to setup]. Let’s see… what else?
Most people who come here to demo these speakers, to tell you the truth, have just come from auditioning the B&W, Definition, and JM Lab/Focal. They have just been fed tipped up midrange hell and musical slurry. They are rarely audiophiles and we have so little time to demonstrate to them that they are on the road to ‘audio hell’ [when they see $350K speakers, they think we have already arrived at audio nutsville :-)]. The Acoustic Zen are audiophile-grade speakers, whereas the others are not [sorry]. Which takes us to the next section.
These speakers have what I think of as 2 distinct sounds – depending on the amp driving them. With a Red Dragon amp, or little Kharma amp, these are very dynamic, fairly quick sounding speakers. With Edge amps and tube amps, these are more…tube-like, a little more harmonic and continuous. With BAT amps you can achieve the middle ground – more or less.
We’ve found people greatly prefer either one or the other with these speakers [whereas we do not. We like both flavors of sound].
I think these speakers are for music lovers, not quite so much into the sophisticated sound gymnastics as some audiophiles are [guilty as charged, love those crazy subtle details and intricacies!] , and want a audiophile-grade full-range speaker for an audiophile-grade 2-way speaker price.
I also believe that QUAD also makes a worthy speaker in this price range – but again, not the ease, soundstage size, nor bass of the Crescendos.
A recent email that I will cut and paste here, in case others are intersted or want to talk about this:
“…and I think the AZ Crescendo is even better now because Mr. Lee has raised the sensitivity of this speaker over the last few years. That’s why it sounds better now with sweeter, low-ish powered tube amps…
Just curious about your comment on the Magico/Solutions room…
You said it was “dull” and “confused”. I understand “dull” because Magicos can sound that way sometimes, not especially dynamic or tipped up, but I don’t quite understand what you mean by “confused”. Do you mean they are non-linear, or their soundstaging sucks, or their focus is off, or? Just curious…”
By confusing I mean that there are many things in the sound that are confusing to the ears and therefore believability is diminished. This does not refer to soundstaging [which to me is a nice-to-have feature after all the other features are in order].
Imaging most definitely suffers, and the cause can probably be traced to non-linear behavior.
For example, if I can generalize, based on hearing the Soulution in several systems now over the years – the harmonics are ‘dull’ but also uneven across the freq. spectrum, as is dynamics. Specifically I think a way to describe them is that they focus on the macro-dynamics of the middle- and lower-midrange. Midi-dynamics is rolled off everywhere and micro-dynamics is present but minimal. So they sound dead. Big, but dead. And, whereas the YG Acoustics can sound dead when under-driven, with the Soulution they did not have that wonderful even-handedness (and they also sounded dull, but NOT at all under-driven – which implies to me that the Magico were not under-driven by the Soulution at CES either. This is just the sound of the amps).
Maybe people LIKE their system to sound big and dull, and do not care about transparency and harmonics and all that other highfalutin stuff. That is fine. Just trying to describe it so that people can pick and choose what they want with a little more information and different perspective than that of JV and others talking about these amps and these systems currently.
[Hope you were OK with me pasting this in over here…!]
-Mike.
P.S. After reading this over and thinking about it… This kind of describes BAT amps, and ARC amps, maybe a lot of other amps. So it is not like I hate Soulution, I hate this kind of approach that removes the goodness from the music, that which makes music music, and replaces it with a Novocaine and testosterone highball. 😉
P.P.S. Putting mega-watt amps in order from least micro-dynamics to most:
VTL – Soulution – BAT – CAT – ARC – Pass – Krell – Boulder – MBL – Edge – Ayre – Vitus
Agreed? Should CAT and BAT be swapped? Edge and Ayre swapped? Edge and MBL? [think it depends on what part of the line we are talking about] Certainly a different way to order amps – is it useful?
Hi Mike,
To start off, great pics again as always. Looking forward to the rest of them. Im curious to hear your opinion on the sounds of the TRI amps and pre amps in this system. I’ve yet to hear these electronics, but I think they look gorgeous with the red. How did they sound with the Crescendos?? Have you heard the Tri gear with another system? What would you compare them to in the same price range?? THanks again Mike. Keep up the great job and the great pics coming.
Thanks Mike! Good write up. I’d add Spectral to your lineup, but probably more in the middle range of the micro-dynamic scale, and I’d knock ARC down about 3 or 4 notches.
I’d also add Halco to the list, around where you’d put Spectral. Secretively, I liked the AZ and Halcro combo in the past…
Thanks Mike, quite good view on sound of mass market products, I 100% agree you.
I think high power amplifiers and dull sounding speakers have more impressive effect on customers and many audiophiles do not know these type of sound is not suitable for long music listening.
I try to import ESP Speakers to iran with pairing it with Vitus electronics.
ESP speakers like Audio note speakers are emotional and i hope to find good result with matching them.
high-end as romy says is in a 180 degree wrong direction.
Hi Harry,
ARC is already kind of low. CAT amps are definitely low on the midi-dynamic scale – but you think they should be above ARC on the micro-dynamic scale here? They are both problematic, that is for sure.
Spectral has been off my radar for awhile – they still kicking? These days one has to ask *sigh*.
Halcro, Also kind of fading after they dropped their U.S. distributor a few years ago, but good, they should be on the chart.
Micro Dynamics low to high:
VTL – Soulution – BAT – CAT – ARC – Pass – Krell – Boulder – Spectral – Halcro – MBL – Edge – Ayre – Vitus
Take care,
Mike
Hi Amir,
Sorry I have been neglecting Facebook, I am trying to get out and post more on FB and Twitter.
“…many audiophiles do not know these type of sound is not suitable for long music listening…”
Well put.
Many people do like ESP speakers. They are somewhat emotional, though I would not call AN speakers emotional, and hope I do not say that somewhere on this gigantic site. AN electronics are emotional, but I think the speakers are almost perfectly neutral.
“high-end as romy says is in a 180 degree wrong direction. ”
Well, Romy has a bad attitude (maybe you have noticed that?) and 180 degrees would imply that it is going in the ‘perfectly exactly’ wrong direction, which gives the industry way too much credit. It may be more like an exploding water balloon, going in all directions at once.
I think AN is going in the right direction (towards the real from the emotional). I think Lamm, Nordost, Emm Labs, Jorma, Elrod, Marten are all going in the right direction if you define the right direction as making music reproduction so powerful a person can’t think straight in its presence. Can you imagine thinking straight while sitting on stage while Miles Davis (while alive) played? Or while an orchestra played a symphony? Everything kind of stops until the song is over, then you can rapidly move to escape… or wait until the NEXT song finishes.
A new slogan:
Music Reproduction so Powerful You Can’t Think Straight.
[OK.OK. This is the 2000s, most people out there apparently can’t think straight [or just can;t think]… so how about:
Music Reproduction so Powerful You Can’t Think as Straight as You Normally Do.
🙂
Take care,
Mike
Thanks Mike
I think speaking about industry needs more time and i try to publish an article about it but I’m happy that me and you have exactly common view about brands.
I try to publish another article about macro vs micro linearity that maybe useful for who like to view from my window to Audio.
I know romy attitude is not as i like to be but i really esteem his view on high end and his forum helped me to know many things that were not published in other sites.
🙂
best regards
Amir
Great idea doing such a list
I’d really like to know where you think the McIntosh power amps fit in that list.
All the best
Hi Ijja,
It is indeed an interesting subject.
I am going to start a new post on this topic so that casual visitors know what we have been up to down here in the comments 🙂
Thanks,
Mike
Mike,
I have not seen the list price on the Crescendo speakers. What is it, to better understand your comments and comparisons? Thanks.
Les
Hi Les,
The Crescendo is $14K.
Thanks,
Mike
Hi ImAllLinn, 🙂
I haven’t responded about the Tri amps and pre – and CD player – because I have a hard time getting a handle on them. I CAN say that they don’t suck [which is very complimentary for those of you who do not read this blog all the time :-)].
They definitely have a ‘tube’ sound that is different from the ‘solid-state’ sound on the AZ speakers… but it is hard to determine how warm sounding they are – I think perhaps that the AZ speakers have a tendency to make solid-state sound warmer than it is and tubes to sound cooler.
I would love to hear the latest Tri on different speakers so that I can triangulate their more recent sound. 3 or 4 years years ago, when they did show on different speakers, I thought they [their less expensive gear] were very musical. Similar to Grant Fidelity, if I can wax generally. Very nice people. Also similar to Grant Fidelity 🙂
Take care,
Mike
Dear Mike,
Interesting rating of amps, I’m just curious if you were going to rate those by numbers, how many points would be given to an amp like Audio Note.
Thanks,
Armen
Oh sorry I forgot to ask about AZ Crescendo. With ports bigger than driver itself how was the bass?
Armen
Hi Armen,
I am purposely leaving off lower-powered tube amps like Audio Note, Lamm, Engstrom & Engstrom because these, with proper setup and speaker matching, perform much better than the amps in the list. There may be other tube amps that are good… Kondo? … but they are rarely if ever setup correctly at shows or dealers and so I have never heard them sound very good and must assume they are not good.
The bass on the Crescendo was great. The bass was not tipped up, which the Adagio can be to a slight degree (though much less than other speakers at its price point). I got the impression that AZ has worked hard on making the speaker perform well across the freq band – and as a result across many kinds of music.
Like I said, a big sound, which includes the appropriate amount of bass – which means there is quite a bit – the speaker is quite large. I know we had a few customers who loved the Adagio except that it did not go low enough for them – particularly for classical music.
Take care,
Mike.
Hello Mike,
Great info on the AZ Crescendo’s! It was my first hi-fi show, so I wasn’t sure if I was correct in saying that the AZ/Tri room was the best sound. But I guess the adage “trust your ears” can’t be overstated enough. It’s nice to have another set of ears though.
I will most likely go with the Tri 845SE as I thought that sounded very nice.
It’s down to the Crescendos and the Bastanis Apollos. Have you ever heard the open baffle Bastanis before? They’ve actually shown with Tri gear in the past.
And if you had your choice, which ones would you choose?
Best-Bill
Hi Bill,
Yes, I’ve heard those speakers – and sat and listened to them. For me, I have always expected them, based on their design and reputation, to be more dynamic, less compressed, more open sounding than conventional speakers – but instead what I hear are kind of average sounding speakers with the traditional problems vis-a-vis integration of midrange with the bass, compression near the cross over points, unevenness, etc.
I think you’ve talked to Neli too, and based on your needs I think the appearance and market swell of the AZ speakers, and not just their being sonically superior in my particular opinion, also contributes to the recommendation that you seriously consider the Crescendos.
Thanks,
Mike
Yeah Mike, I have been trying to convince myself to like the Bastanis, but each time, I walk away with differing concerns. Initially it was brightness. Then a shut-in, veiled quality with vocals, then again, a leanness in the midrange-only to be helped by an active tube preamp as opposed to autoformer.
Do you think the 20 watts from the 845 tube in the Tri amp is enough for the Crescendos? It was in the small hotel room, but my room will be 20’X22′.
Not to confuse matters, but I recently heard the Coincident Super Eclipses and they sounded good to me, albeit with one minor concern: perhaps a bit of compression in bass dynamics? I’ve also heard that the ribbon tweeter can be overly “showy” in the new models?
Thank you for taking the time in your reply. And yes, I did speak with Neli. She really knows her stuff and is a very good listener, which I’ve come to find in short supply in the audio world.
I just read this, having an interest in the Crescendo’s for a backup system. I heard them at the factory driven by the integrated Tri Bi Amp….they sounded great..better than at RMAF due to the very good room match in San Diego but still a very pleasing and well balanced sound. Robert Lee said he measured absolutely flat ____ out of every speaker component using a sound pressure meter or some such. [Please fill in blank and supply acronym for the measurement device. Lee was very proud of the flatness..said it was desireable and nothing else produced such flatness (Is this balance?)
Where would you put Levinson 33H on this list? I found Krelll and Boulder pretty edgy and shrill on Wilson speakers..MaxxIII/Sophia and Krell very shrill on Alex II-2. Surprisingly, Petrer McGrath of Wilson recommended at RMAF VTL as closely matched with X-2’s Maybe I don’t understand microdynamics or else McGrath didn’t grasp that I was looking for the opposite of dull and loud but rather detail, clarity, realism, distinct instrument separation and space between grouped instruments. The “grouped strings” magicf and perfection and audio nirvana of the AN integrated amp coupled to Marten Supremes in your showroom. This was approximated at a credible but much lesser level in the Crescendo’s at AZ’s San Diego factory.
Micro Dynamics low to high:
VTL – Soulution – BAT – CAT – ARC – Pass – Krell – Boulder – Spectral – Halcro – MBL – Edge – Ayre – Vitus
Hope this string gets picked up on despite its placement under CES 2010
Hi Jim,
I’ll reference this thread, and continue this discussion, in my next post on RMAF 2010.
Best,
-Mike