Sorting large amps based on their micro-dynamic capability
In the comments section of one of the previous threads we came up with the following list:
Micro Dynamics low to high:
Soulution – BAT – CAT – ARC – VTL – Pass – Krell – Boulder – Vitus – Spectral – Halcro – MBL – Goldmund – Ayre – Edge (early NL series)
The most recent question was where to put the McIntosh amps on the list:
Soulution – BAT – McIntosh – CAT – ARC – VTL – Pass – Krell – Boulder – Vitus – Spectral – Halcro – MBL – Goldmund – Ayre – Edge (early NL series)
A case can be made for swapping these amps around a bit, based on the particular model (for example, the more expensive Edge amps are more expensive than any Ayre amps and also have much better micro-dynamics than any Ayre amps), and the particular speaker being driven. I also swapped Krell and Boulder – I think that better represents the intention of the brand, and maybe reality too.
Amps also seem have better micro-dynamics as you listen to their more expensive offerings (which would imply that all brands may value this aspect of music, just some value it more than others – for some it is a high-priority, and others not so much)
But it serves to give one a sense of the overall ‘company’ sound profile.
That being able to reproduce the subtle delicacies of music, the ability to tell a real guitar from a guitar synthesizer, for example, is not a priority with many amp builders. Especially big amp builders.
Big amp builders often focus only on macro-dynamics, and some on midi-dynamics. Also, as you understand, there is a continuum between micro- and midi- dynamics, as notes can exist ANYWHERE between quite delicate or as part of the melody foreground.
MIDI-Dynamics, least to most (just making a stab at it, this list will probably change as more thought is given)
VTL – BAT – CAT – ARC – McIntosh -Vitus – Edge – Pass – Ayre – MBL – Spectral – Halcro -Krell – Soulution – Boulder
MACRO-Dynamics, least to most (just making a stab at it, this list will probably change as more thought is given)
Spectral – Vitus – Edge – Ayre – Pass – CAT – Halcro – MBL – McIntosh – Krell – Soulution – ARC – Boulder – BAT – VTL
… and then we can talk about DETAILED macro-dynamics, which acknowledges the fact that micro- and midi-dynamics occur at the beginning and end of most macro-dynamic events.
And then a couple of lists to do with harmonic color (McIntosh, ARC, MBL…) and harmonic purity (more or less reverse the macro-dynamics list…!?).
We’ll leave that for the comments or another post…
Are you talking detailed-sounding here, as in greater microdynamics = more detailed, open sounding? Where would you rank the large Burmester Amps (like the 909) in terms of their micro-dynamic abilities? I think Burmester has a tendency to emphasize detail over warmth, like Spectral does – both are on the cold side of neutral to my ears.
Hi Florian!
Um… detailed? Depends, I think.
It came as a great surprise for me when some people thought the Boulder amps were more ‘detailed’ than the Edge amps.This meant to me that some people label aggressive midi-dynamics as ‘detailed’.
But yes, I think micro-dynamics and detail are closely related, although for two amps with the same micro-dynamics, one can be more ‘detailed’ than the other because it has more aggressive (steeper) leading edges and/or rapid fall off at the top of the note waveform.
Open-sounding, to me, might be described as the notes being fully formed at the top, the maximum amplitude, of a note (no compression) as well as a well-formed decay (it doesn’t peter out too fast – no offense to our male readers – or have excessive decay) . It really means, to me, that the amp is in full control and does not sound like it is running out of steam at the current volume.
So, what, now we have harmonic warmth, purity and color. Can an amp have a lot of color and still be cool sounding? I always thought warmth had to do with also with notes being a little bloomy [how to describe?] and decaying a little longer than what is ‘real’ and, also, harmonic color.
Funny, but Burmester preamps are actually warm sounding…
So, I am going to swap Halcro and Spectral and insert Burmester … there. Spectral is hard to get a grip on – usually paired with Wilson speakers (mucho micro-dynamico) and MIT cables (mucho compressisimo in the micro/midi- and midi-dynamics regions)
VTL – Soulution – McIntosh – BAT – CAT – ARC – Pass – Boulder – Krell – Halcro – Spectral -Burmester – MBL – Edge – Ayre – Vitus
Take care,
Mike
Hello Mike,
As always very interesting and informative!
Now, first of all for this list to be of rea-world use, let’s discuss what makes an amp perfect (although no amp is perfect).
Is it the micro, midi or macro dynamics; a combination of all 3; or the maximization of one or two of them while leaving out the rest?
As we can clearly see from this list, none can do all 3 perfectly.
Secondly, your list is a great way to see which brands are great all-rounders. From what I can see, Boulder, Krell, MBL and Halcro seem to be leading the pack.
Boulder and Krell seem to be the top 2 as all-rounders; and while I can sympathize with Boulder being the best all-rounder, I’d really have doubts about calling Krell the second best. What do you think?
As for the all-mighty amps that are so popular, Pass Labs, McIntosh, ARC and BAT all
being average or below average in nearly all 3 areas tells quite a lot.
Hope this topic gets many responses and the list grows and matures over time.
All the best
I Think some brands that have the best macro dynamics at first listening sessions are alittle on exaggerated side of macro dynamics as Mike call them “Impressive” and in my idea Vitus is so close to real neutrality in macro dynamics and it’s macro is not in end of list if we correctly point the neutral line.
in my idea just top Single ended amplifiers like Audio Note Ongaku could have better micro than Vitus and Vitus seems to be the best Solidstate amplifier in our world.
Amir
Yes, well, we still haven’t considered anything else except dynamics so far (like harmonics, freq response, etc)and not even the linearity nor accuracy (as Amir points out) of the dynamics in fact.
I also looked at the graphs and wondered if one could judge which one was best just my looking at them. Sometimes we call these all round performers ‘workhorse’ amps – they kind of do the job without really doing it spectacular well nor spectacularly poorly.
In practice, however, this is often not the case. That is because, I think, our ears are more sensitive to micro-dynamics than the midi- and to midi- than macro, and by sensitive I mean overly sensitive, as in ‘easily irritated by’. Irritated by incorrect (too sharp an attack, for example, sounds like fingernails on a blackboard) and or absent micro-dynamics (hard-sounding and always seems too loud).
All to say: the importance of correct micro-dynamics is greater than the importance of midi-dynamics which is greater than the importance of macro-dynamics.
And how many speakers and rooms can really take advantage of so much macro-dynamics, anyway [which is usually associated with lots of bass)? Another reason to emphasize the other kinds of dynamics when choosing an amp.
OK. Neli wants me to help flip a mattress, got to go.
“the importance of correct micro-dynamics is greater than the importance of midi-dynamics which is greater than the importance of macro-dynamics.”
Thanks Mike
I’m happy that you and me have exactly common views about importance of micro dynamics.
if audiophiles understand importance of micro then they could move in a right direction but we know most companies move in wrong direction and make products with better macro because these products are more impressive at first view.
check goldmund and fm acoustics, many think they are pinnacle of amplifier design but we see both of them make over 600 watt amplifiers and new goldmund amplifier is above 1000watt .
most companies move in a direction for better macro and very few brands like Audio Note exactly know importance of micro for human hearing.
digital, wrong ss design, complex loudspeakers and in a simple word “complexity” changed the right direction.
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/tinyamps.html
I’m happy that Spintricity is a source for helping audiophiles to move in right direction and i’m happy that we can share our views on it.
regards
Amir
🙂
I really enjoyed reading the previous posts… Thank you all!
Hi Amir,
Interesting article….
I do not see anything inherently wrong with large amps – as long as Goldmund and FM Acoustics have high-quality micro-dynamics, they might NEED to increase the wattage to get an appropriate amount of midi- and macro-dynamics.
Let’s add them to the list – again, everything here is just averaging out – it really depends on WHICH amp at which price point we are comparing… Also added Sanders (and moved Ayre around to account for the fact that the rest of the lines we are looking at make expensive amps and we have to compare the most expensive Ayre with the medium-priced offerings of the other amps… not medium priced Ayre with the least expensive of the other amps.)
// MICRO < - less .... more ->
VTL – Soulution – McIntosh – BAT – CAT – ARC – Pass – Boulder – Krell – FM Acoustics – Spectral – Halcro – MBL – Ayre – Sanders – Goldmund – Edge – Vitus
// MIDI < - less .... more ->
VTL – BAT – CAT – ARC – McIntosh -Vitus – Edge – Sanders – Goldmund – FM Acoustics – Pass – Ayre – MBL – Spectral – Halcro -Krell – Soulution – Boulder
// MACRO < - less .... more ->
Spectral – Vitus – Edge – Ayre – Pass – CAT – Halcro – Sanders – Goldmund? – FM Acoustics – MBL – McIntosh – Krell – Soulution – ARC – Boulder – BAT – VTL
I don’t remember the macro characteristics of the few Goldmund amps I have heard, I was focused on their micro/midi-dynamics characteristics [ergo the ?]
We need to add lists for harmonics etc. I’ll start those lists in the next post.
Thanks Florian and Amir,
Mike
Thanks Mike
I never listened to FM or Goldmund but maybe you should add harmonic section to discussion because i define macro linearity and micro linearity.
in my idea micro linearity means accurate low level information rendering in both scale of speed and harmonics. speed means micro dynamic or sense of resolution (detail) and micro harmonics means the sense of richness (not as most reviewers use), sparkle, bloomy (goes to mid/macro) and decay.
I think no high power amplifier even parallel SET Amplifiers could increase both macro and micro linearity and I can not imagine a 600 watt ss design could give us micro linearity that a 20 watt can give us.
I think we can improve macro linearity with careful system matching and tuning it but we could not increase micro linearity if a component do not give it to us.
another point is neutral line in macro dynamics. a think vitus with a match speaker will give us very very close state to ideal macro linearity.
mike, i really like you listen to 100watt Class A Vitus monoblock with marten supreme, i do not know it’s possible or not but i like to know your view on that combination.
in ces vitus introduced 50 watt class A/B and it seems you did not listened to it’s pure class A models.
regards
Amir
Hi Amir,
So by linearity you mean accuracy in multiple aspects of a single note’s attributes.
We kind of mean the same thing, except that by linearity I am describing any single attribute of music reproduction, and how that attribute responds to changes: in freq. SPL, music complexity, and note dynamic envelope (sharpness of the note’s attack, say).
This is more clear when we talk about the LACK of linearity in most equipment: how the quality of, say, the harmonics changes when the music gets louder or softer, or as the music becomes more or less complex.
I see no inherent problems with larger amps versus small – nor with any specific amp architecture. The proof is in the listening.
I do not think the 50 watt Vitus amps ever got out of class A mode – they were playing them at an extremely listenable volume.
To tell the truth, none of the amps in the list interest me all that much. I guess this does allow me to talk about them quite dispassionately. But solid-state amps, and large amps in general, have problems with attack and decay and harmonics and not sure what else. Someday they may be able to fix these – but not today.
There is hope for me in solid-state amp land – the little Pass Lab amps on the Louts Group Granada Feastrex-driver speakers had a very pure tone in the middle mid-range. Reminded me of the purity of the Emm Labs digital (and presumably that which will be found in their preamp). I think Edge is moving in this direction, but hopefully will not abandon their micro-dynamics capabilities along the way. Then, if designers will pay more attention to the output transformers – they are after all supposed to be driving speakers, not test equipment – then someday we may see these amps make loud music and not just loud, interesting – but in the end not very much like music – sounds.
[and yes, many people blame this state-of-affairs on the speaker manufacturers who make overly difficult-to-drive speakers. And yes, these many people have a good point – which just means we have 2 ways out of this rut: speakers designed to be easier loads on the amps, and amps that can drive these difficult loads and still make music.]
Take care,
Amir… and yes, we will with great probability get the Vitus in someday and put them on the Supremes Just don’t get your hopes up that we will love them as much as you do. 🙂 With the AN Gaku-on amps on the Supremes with the ODIN power cords we had more realistic dynamics – micro to macro, than I have ever heard outside a live recital. And, with the DAC5 signature, harmonics so true that it brought tears to my eyes that I had lived so long and never realized how important very, very subtle harmonic tones were to the appreciation of music.
Thanks Mike 🙂
I really like to see pairing Vitus SM-101 with Marten Supreme in your room.
Audio is our hobby and we live with it 🙂
Thanks for care and help
best regards
Amir
Can you say some more about how the power of an amp in general relates to micro- and macrodynamics (assuming that they are paired with suitably sensitive speakers of course)?
And what about the differences in Class A vs Class A/B? You mentioned a low-powered Pass being solid state in the right direction? I’m assuming that this would be a Class A amp?
A nice discussion and useful lists, particularly for helping folks narrow down what brands they might want to audition.
Hi Roscoeiii,
I think what Amir is saying is that it is defacto true that the biggest amps seem to suffer when it comes to micro-dynamics – and what I am saying is that I see no ‘technological’ reason for this to always be the case.
I think the expensive class A/B amps sound better than the inexpensive’ class A amps… a lot depends on the attention to detail than manufacturer put into the amp. In other words, it is not about the technology used,IMHO, but how the amp actually sounds – and that depends on many, many factors: the particular design used, chassis, wiring, components…
Re: the sound of this particular system with Pass Labs and Feastrex drivers – it was just an example of what solid-state can do, tonally, in a very narrow range (and in a system quite compromised from my point of view with respect to associated equipment). From what I understand, these drivers are very easy to drive and cost about $20-$30K per pair. The point is that solid-state amps, if they could drive more common drivers correctly, might have a pleasant purity that might counter some of their more problematic issues.
Re: auditioning. It is all about the speaker/amp pairing – and your preferences and tolerances of course. Unless you are looking at the better Audio Note amps or the Lamm ML3, you need to pick the amp that is best for your speaker – given your budget and tolerances for things like bass being a little weak or tone being a little washed out versus preferences like preferring an uncompressed midrange or loving that sense of ‘air’, for example.
These lists are somewhat esoteric, and perhaps we need to start a parallel disucssion on Best Amp for a Speaker. For example, the VTL scores low on many of the lists [and will in the future lists] but paired with the Sound Lab speakers [which have micro-dynamics out the yin yang but are quite hard to drive] they make a great pair for someone who likes the tube sound on the SoundLabs [which is very, very nice and very different from the solid-state sound on the SoundLabs – which is nice too (with a decent amp… NOT the Parasound please… try Sanders), of course, but somewhat more ethereal].
OK. Sentences too long there, but…
Thanks for your questions,
Mike.
a good link from pass labs for describing Class A Class A/B:
http://www.hifi.ir/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/leaving_class_a.pdf
I agree mike that many Class A/B amplifiers are better than Class A amplifiers.
a good approach should have good results even in wide implementing range and not in a narrow range.
I think solidstate and digital technology in comparison with tube and analog technology have narrower range and for implementing good result from them we should pay more care and cost and the final result is not as good as state of the art.
with analog and digital we find better result at lower cost and it help audiophiles have better result with lower cost.
it’s interesting that you see over 70k$ digital source and over 130k$ solidstate amplifier!!!!
I do not why industry replaced tube with transistor or replaced analog with digital but I hope Audio industry find correct direction.
regards
Amir
I correct:
with analog and digital we find better result at lower cost and it help audiophiles have better result with lower cost.
to:
with analog and Tubes we find better result at lower cost and it help audiophiles have better result with lower cost.
Hi everybody
Mike ,may i ask ,where is the ASR place ?
Hi Mehrdad,
Ah, the ASR.
I’ll have to put it in the list in the other post’s comments thread – or maybe it is time for a new one. You know, the ASR does not score all that well in terms of dynamics [it is kind of laid back] and harmonics is just average. Thinking about what makes the ASR a decent amp for many people made me realize that we need another list for the amps:
Bad Behavior:
Many of the amps on the list have some kind of bad behavior: brightness or extreme dullness, tendency to catch on fire [I joke! … kind of :-)], or whatever – and the ASR does not.
We’ll have to add this bad behavior list to the lists…. This amp choosing business is so complex… luckily it is fun too!
Thanks,
Mike
Dear Mike
now or maybe at the first time I try to define subjective vectors that we define sounds exactly on it’s coordinate, maybe impossible but i try. i think we need a complete and common language for our ideas. I hope this try make us more familiar.
at first I define two thing, macro linearity and micro linearity then try to categorize all subjective parameters in this two field.
for start I have four windows for viewing sound:
1. presence of sound in space
2. harmonic structure
3. dynamic structure
4. transparency and neutrality for this 3 windows
just i need time and it’s not in my hands.
Thank you Mike
This kind of sorting is very helpful. many of us maybe don’t hearing
all of this amps , but this list could help to find an idea about some
brands .
For this it would be so nice if this lists will be moor complete & expand .
The best wishes
I updated the list a little.
The newer VTLs have more detail which includes a little more micro-dynamics.
Vitus just doesn’t have as much micro-dynamics as we originally thought.
Edge moved toward less micro-dynamics before they went out of business. Have no idea what they are like now.
Added Goldmund.
Will add Emmlabs MTRX amp as soon as I can stop going gaga over other aspects of their performance. Since I am adding a link to this in the sidebar, hopefully I will remember to try and add more amps in the near future.
Take care, all,
-Mike
Good write-up. I absolutely love this site.
Thanks!